Speaker 1:
Well, hi there. Welcome to the Parenting Without Power Struggles Podcast. In today's podcast, you're going to hear me coaching a parent whose kids have a hard time adjusting to the different rules and boundaries or lack of boundaries in their parents' two homes. We're gonna get started in just a minute, but first, let me introduce myself. I'm your host, Susan Stiffelman. I'm the author of Parenting Without Power Struggles and Parenting With Presence In this podcast series, I share some of the things I've learned in my 40 plus years as a teacher, a marriage and family therapist, a parent educator, and a mom. And we cover everything with guests like Dr. Eliza Pressman, Dr. Tina Bryson, Martha Beck, Byron Katie, Julie Lithcott-Haims, Janet Lansbury, Kristin Neff, and Dr. Dan Siegel. So much content is here for you absolutely free. You can also head over to susanstiffelman.com and sign up for my free newsletter.

Speaker 1:
There's lots of inspiration and tips and strategies and information on over 40 deep dive masterclasses on everything from chores and homework to routines and helping anxious children thrive. I recently did a class with Dr. Gabor Mate that is on the website, and I have class upcoming with Dr. Dan Siegel. So check everything out at susanstiffelman.com. In today's session, I'm gonna be talking with a parent whose children's other parent in the other household doesn't really set boundaries. So when they're with her, there's a lot of pushback, a lot of complaining, and even anxiety because they get worried that when she sets a limit it's because she's mad at them. So have a listen and then we'll come back for the wrap up. Hi Annie. I am glad you're here.

Speaker 2:
Hi. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1:
So I'm excited to talk with you because you have a topic that I think so many parents can relate to and it has to do with boundaries, particularly boundaries in two different households where they're not always the same. Do you wanna kind in general terms give us the lay of the land?

Speaker 2:
Yes. I have two children that I split custody of with my ex-husband. They are six and 10, a boy and a girl. And one thing I'm noticing for our family is just that it's stressful for the kids to have one parent who doesn't have a lot of boundaries. And then my household where we do have boundaries that I think are very important and the yo-yo effect that happens for them going back and forth and how to ease that for them. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
And how does it show up with your kids? Sort of what kind of complaints do they or do they make comparisons or do they just have a harder time kind of falling into the rhythm of your household because there's more free form at their other parents' house?

Speaker 2:
I'm noticing some anxiety around my boundaries. Sort of like this mindset of, because dad doesn't have any, that means he loves me. And when mom says, oh no, I, you know, you can't watch a movie until you've read your book for the day. They feel a little anxious, like maybe they're in trouble because having that boundary put in place is making them nervous it seems like. Oh, interesting. Okay. And feel like they need to push it, you know, like if, if mom drops this boundary, I'll feel better because I'm so threatened by the boundary. It's a scary boundary even if it's something so small like that. Yeah. So I don't want them to feel that way. <Laugh>. Right, right. It's,

Speaker 1:
And Annie, how familiar are you with my work? Just so I have some idea of what, what ideas I can refer to?

Speaker 2:
Fairly familiar. We benefited a lot from your technology summit. That's actually why <laugh> I contacted you because I've used so much from it. Not only in terms of tech, but just parenting in general. It was really helpful. Good,

Speaker 1:
Good. So then you would've heard me talk about boundaries in that for sure, because screen time, and I think that's at the top of almost every parent's list of things that they argue with their kids about. Yeah. How much is enough and it's never enough, and which places can they go and what devices and how old. So definitely a topic for boundaries. And from what you're saying, they might have more leniency at their dad's house.

Speaker 2:
Yes, for sure. I am, you know, I wanted to limit it from the beginning. And that talk was helpful because I, you know, got a little lost in feeling like all of our interactions were becoming negative <laugh> because of the, you know, you can, you can't have it right now. And so the long break, the three week cleanse ended up being so important, just resetting it. And I think that really highlighted for me how much my daughter in particular was using the screens to kind of avoid her discomfort over the yo-yoing and problems at school, like social stuff. I saw that it was definitely an escape thing. You, my son never really struggled with the boundaries around it, but for her it was really tough. And so that kind of led to this discussion as well, just me noticing how it affects her. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
And is she the older child? Yes. Okay. All right. Good. So the first thing I wanna say is stay the course. <Laugh> boundaries are, are an act of love. That's how I see it. Now, I'm not saying restrictions are an act of love or are arbitrary withholding of fun things or, or things kids want is an act of love. But I'm saying boundaries, healthy boundaries are a way that we provide one of the important ingredients of secure attachment. And that's really what we're about. Like my work you may know, is built on this idea of attachment. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And we know what insecure attachment looks like. It's either the disorganized attachment or the anxious ambivalent, or there's inconsistency or there's the avoidant or a child is left more or less to their own devices, not literally <laugh>. Yeah. And, and and then disorganized is where the parent is, is both the perpetrator of scariness or instability.

Speaker 1:
And the one the child understandably goes to 'cause they're the only grownup in the room. Uhhuh <affirmative>, the caretaker. So we're all about secure attachment. And secure attachment is about how do I set, set, create an environment where my children know what they can and can't do, and where I'm brave enough and willing to endure their dissatisfaction with me or their unhappiness or upset frustration. So that it's fairly consistent. The ground is always where the ground is. And even though it tends to leave a child, especially when they live in two households feeling less loved or like the parent who has looser boundaries or no boundaries in many ways is more popular. <Laugh> the kids are, you know, I'm not saying that, that their father is a Disneyland dad, where he is just, you know, let's stay up till three in the morning and eat popcorn and watch tv. But it's hard, it's hard to implement boundaries. And so, especially 'cause we do feel our kids resistance or they may feel like you said, they may not even feel loved or it may make them feel like, what have I done wrong? Uhhuh

Speaker 2:
<Affirmative>.

Speaker 1:
Have you had conversations and perhaps they would be better one-on-one 'cause the kids are pretty far apart in age and at d different developmental stages. I wonder if you've had the conversation with them independently, each of them, you know, sweetie, I've been wanting to ask you, it seems like an, an possible reference, an event that recently happened. Okay. It seemed like, you know, yesterday when you wanted to and, and maybe you could create a scenario and I'll, I'll do a better job. If you could give me a hypothetical situation or a real one that we can kind of explore, what would that be? Okay.

Speaker 2:
I would say candy for breakfast, <laugh> is an argument we have had. Really? Okay. But yeah.

Speaker 1:
So, you know, the other day or this morning when you were really wanted candy for breakfast.

Speaker 2:
Yes.

Speaker 1:
Yes. It seemed like you wanted it a bajillion, like it was really important that you have candy for breakfast. Do I have that? Is that, was that true?

Speaker 2:
Yes, I did.

Speaker 1:
Can you tell me more about that? That desire for the candy?

Speaker 2:
I thought it would taste good and be fun. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. And what did I say?

Speaker 2:
No, you can't have that right now because it's bad for you. <Laugh>.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. So I said no to something you really wanted. And I'm just wondering, and again, this is Susan out of the role play. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> what? We don't wanna interrogate them, we don't want this to be super long and complicated, but we are offering them some, some ways to begin to articulate what was going on. Because this is how our children eventually learn how to speak up for themselves to express their feelings, to advocate on their own behalf. So we're prompting, we're coaching, we're teaching them how the words might sound in those moments. And that starts by not lecturing them about why they couldn't have candy, but by being willing to and curious to explore what was going on that was driving that longing. And it might be as simple as it tastes good. <Laugh>. I wonder if you were a little bit mad when I said no.

Speaker 2:
I was. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. And are there other things that you get mad about when I say no or you can't do that thing or have it?

Speaker 2:
Yes.

Speaker 1:
Like what?

Speaker 2:
Staying up late.

Speaker 1:
So again, out of the role play for a minute now I'm, I'm using the thread of the candy, so it's like pulling a thread to see what else is there. Okay. And this is where it gets really interesting and we, we miss these opportunities with our kids because a lot of times we'll just say, well, let me tell you why you couldn't have candy. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But if we slow it down and we say, you know, I'm really, I'm not gonna just interested and is what else, where else do you feel that way? It helps the child also become more self-aware. And you know what, I, I got really mad about the candy because I'm also mad about screen time and bathtime and bedtime and what you let me watch. And now we've helped the child begin to access maybe smoldering resentments and get them out in the open so they can be heard, acknowledged, validated, and worked through. So, so another time when you feel like it's not, you don't like it when I say no is is around bedtime?

Speaker 2:
Yes.

Speaker 1:
Anything else? Any other times when, when you're like, you just want me to say yes or let you have something or do something and I tell you, you can't

Speaker 2:
When I wanna play on the iPad?

Speaker 1:
Yeah. So there are times when you wanna be on the iPad and what do I say?

Speaker 2:
You've already used your time for the day, <laugh>.

Speaker 1:
So I'm curious when I say you've already had your time on the iPad today, if, if you were really able to notice, like in your body, do you feel hot or sweaty or shivery or tight or what kind of feelings come up when you hear me say that?

Speaker 2:
Frustrated.

Speaker 1:
You feel frustrated? Yeah. And okay, that's really smart that you know how to use that word and that you know that here's the thing you want and the only thing standing between having that thing is mommy, right?

Speaker 2:
<Laugh>? Yes.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. Thank you for letting me know. I wanna know the things that frustrate you. I wanna be able to help you not be so frustrated or anxious or sad or mad. Even though you know what, being a human being means we're gonna feel all those feelings. Anything else you want me to know about the candy or the iPad or anything else? Bedtime

Speaker 2:
Dad lets me have it.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. Yeah. So not only do you get frustrated with me, but over here you're thinking, but if I was at dad's house right now, I'd be having the candy and playing on the iPad and staying up late.

Speaker 2:
Yes.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm wondering if it leaves you feeling like daddy is nicer or he, I know this, I know this is true, but does that some part of you feel like, oh, daddy must love me more or like me more or he is nicer

Speaker 2:
Sometimes.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. Yeah. Which of those things?

Speaker 2:
All of them that he likes me more than you like me. Oh

Speaker 1:
Wow. Oh honey. Okay. Well hard to hear, but I'm glad you're telling me. So a part of you see, 'cause we have parts, we have a lot of different parts of us. We have the part that doesn't care about anything but how good candy tastes. And maybe, maybe if you dug around, you'd know there's a part in there that knows maybe I need more nutritious food than candy. Do you think that part is in there somewhere too?

Speaker 2:
Yes.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. And then there's the part that loves staying up late and then there's another part that knows if I stay up really late, I'm gonna be tired of cranky the next day. Is that part in there too?

Speaker 2:
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. So, but we have all these parts, that's how humans are built. So the part that loves staying up late and being on the iPad and eating candy for breakfast might feel that part. Might feel, oh daddy daddy's like, likes me more than mommy does. Is that what kind of what you're saying?

Speaker 2:
Yes.

Speaker 1:
Okay. Okay. Isn't it interesting how we have all these parts

Speaker 2:
<Laugh>? Yes.

Speaker 1:
Is there a part of you that doesn't think daddy likes you or loves you more when he lets you be on the iPad?

Speaker 2:
Maybe

Speaker 1:
Not sure about that. Okay. <laugh>, is there a part of you that thinks maybe Daddy doesn't love you more than mommy when he gives you candy?

Speaker 2:
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
Okay. So can you tell me what that part says?

Speaker 2:
That if I do these things, it won't be good for me.

Speaker 1:
Okay. Does that voice that says if I have the candy and stay up late, is that voice loud or is it a whisper?

Speaker 2:
It's a whisper when I really want it.

Speaker 1:
Oh, nice. So cool. But you know that. All right, well is there anything you wanna ask me? I'm so happy that I got to, you know, have a better idea of all the different things that go on for you. Anything you wanna say or that you haven't said that I should hear?

Speaker 2:
Hmm. I don't think so.

Speaker 1:
Okay. Alright, let's stop the role play for a minute. Uhhuh. <affirmative>. So Annie, I'm just curious. I, first of all, those of you listening, including you, Annie might have noticed that I didn't give you a lecture about why Candy's bad or why they, why going to bed is a, an act suggesting that you go to bed on time as act of love and care rather than proof that I don't love you. Same with the iPad. I didn't do the lecture. I might <laugh>, I might have more of the kind of cerebral discussion about what is love and how I really do love you as much as daddy and all that. But you may have noticed I didn't do that this time. Did you notice that at all?

Speaker 2:
Yes. And the also the way you kind of split that so they can see the good parts, you know, their own knowledge of how those things aren't good for them kind of leads them to that conclusion on their own. Maybe. I liked that <laugh>.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. Because what we know about everybody, humans is that when we come at somebody, and I'm using my hands right now, <laugh>, there's an instinct to push back. It's just whatever is pushing against us, we have an instinct to push back against it. Whereas when we come alongside something and the hands are facing the same direction, that instinct isn't awakened. And so what I'm doing in this first conversation, since this is a larger issue, it's not an issue we're gonna resolve in one quick discussion anyway about the different boundaries at each household. What I'm doing is I'm, I'm setting the stage for future healthy, safe conversations with my children by beginning it with beginning the, the series of conversations. By helping them know that I'm interested in what they're feeling, I'm open to hearing what's going on. I'm curious about what happens in their body. I'm introducing them to the idea that they could have conflicting parts just like we all do. So did you kind of, do you see the, see the maybe how that's a little bit different then let's just talk about why you can't have candy for breakfast.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1:
Okay. So it's just a way, and these are just short, short conversations. I appreciate you signing up to do one with me. And we won't go into great depth, but I wanted to, you gave me a great opportunity to introduce parents to this idea of coming alongside and creating receptivity, resisting the temptation to talk, talk, talk, teach, teach, teach, lecture, lecture, lecture. You know, we have to remember that our kids have to be open first.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's very helpful.

Speaker 1:
Okay.

Speaker 2:
With my daughter, she doesn't wanna feel like she's in trouble. So <laugh> she pushes back pretty hard. And so I think that could be really effective for her.

Speaker 1:
And you could, that's great to, I'm glad you reminded me. 'cause You could go in that direction too. I wonder if sometimes you think that when I'm telling you that it's time for the iPad time, when I wonder if there are times that when I say that you have to stop being on the iPad or that you have to go to bed if there's a part of you, again, part that thinks you're in trouble.

Speaker 2:
Yeah. That's really helpful.

Speaker 1:
And then we, we take the, we, we follow that thread and we say, well, tell me, can you tell me more about that part? You know, what it believes that kind of creates this idea that when I tell you you can't have something that daddy might say, you do get to have that, that part starts to believe you're in trouble or gets a little anxious.

Speaker 2:
Yes. Uhhuh <affirmative>.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. And so we would decide, I'd love to understand that part more or maybe you interview that part <laugh>, and what might that part say? And I'll just ask you real, you know, in the last couple of minutes that we have, what do you think your daughter would say if I, if I invited her to speak on behalf of the part that thinks she's in trouble?

Speaker 2:
I think she might say she feels guilty when, when I put up that boundary, and she might even know that boundary is coming. So she feels like she's in trouble, even if for me it's a neutral, you know, request. Hmm. So she feels a feeling of guilt and then to get rid of that, she'll push back and be like, I wasn't, or I'm not, and yeah. So yeah, I noticed that. Okay.

Speaker 1:
I, I think it's a really interesting area to explore that she is sort of harboring this idea that not being in trouble looks like you saying yes to everything. Uhhuh <affirmative> and being in the trouble, being in trouble is proven by you setting a limit. I think there's a lot of interesting discussion. You could have not long, long-winded ones, but Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, wow. You know, because a, a lot of kids will feel that the parent is being mean or unfair, but in your daughter's case, she actually feels anxious and like she might not be loved. And so there's just something interesting that could come out of a series of, of short but but earnest conversations around where the, where that idea took root, where it began.

Speaker 2:
Yeah. I'm excited about that. I think that be, she's very good about sharing openly, but I think around this topic of guilt she hasn't yet and maybe coming alongside will reduce that reactivity of trying to escape her feelings of guilt by denying wrongdoing. Yeah. She's not in trouble, <laugh>. Right,

Speaker 1:
Right. And you could also just make a blanket statement. I just wanted you guys to know in case you're ever unsure that when I tell you you can't have something or do something for me, it comes from wanting to be a loving mama and take good care of you. And if you're ever feeling anxious or worried that I'm upset or you've done something wrong, come and tell me <laugh> so we can kind of nip that in the bud so that we can address it before it starts to really kinda take on a life of its own. You're welcome. If you ever feel that when I tell you it's time for bed or that can't have candy, if, if you ever hear a part of you saying, oh, I'm in trouble, just come and tell me. Okay. Because I wanna be able to reassure you that it's just about me setting loving limits and that I love you upside down and sideways and we can clear that up.

Speaker 2:
That sounds great.

Speaker 1:
Nice. All right, well thank you Annie. Any final thoughts?

Speaker 2:
No, I think that gave me a lot of great tools to, you know, test out and see how she responds to it. It was very helpful. Thank you for meeting with me. So

Speaker 1:
Happy to have the time with you. All the best. Stay in touch.

Speaker 2:
Thank you. You too. Bye bye.

Speaker 1:
I hope that was a helpful conversation for you to hear. It's never easy to raise kids in two different households as much as we might try to sync up and be on the same page. It does work though. And in some cases when it's really working, kids can do pretty well with adapting and developing some flexibility. I found it a really interesting conversation and as always, I'm so grateful to the parents who raise their hand and are willing to explore these topics with me publicly. We do protect people's names. We don't use their real names and we don't mention the children's names and so forth, but still it's helpful for a lot of parents to hear what it actually sounds like to explore different roads and corners as you're trying to make sense of a situation that has presented some difficulty. If you're enjoying these episodes, it would mean a lot to us if you would leave a rating and especially if you would take a minute and just write a short review really helps this podcast reach parents who could use the help.

Speaker 1:
Again, you can visit susanstiffelman.com. I have a Parenting Without Power Struggles membership that meets twice a month where I answer questions and coach parents around whatever challenge they're facing. There's a co-Parenting with a Narcissist membership that I run with Wendy Beharry, author of Disarming The Narcissist, surviving and Thriving with the Self-Absorbed and Classes coming up with Dr. Dan Siegel and Byron Katie. So check it all out at the website. And now I just invite you to take a quick minute to acknowledge yourself for showing up. This is not easy, you know, raising our kids and especially if we're trying to break old patterns or ways of reacting maybe that we inherited from our own childhood. So learning and growing and taking in new information and considering it and seeing if you can integrate it really, really helps your kids have a different start in life, a different chance to embrace and work from a mindset or a heart set that reflects more confidence, more resilience, more adaptability, and break some of the generational patterns that fuel those power struggles. So I'm glad you're here and I hope you can acknowledge yourself for being here as well. Now remember as we wrap up, I say the same thing because it, you know, if we can drop into this, it can really make a, a little bit of a difference in our lives to pause and reflect no matter how busy life gets, look for those moments of sweetness and joy. Stay well and take care and we'll see you next time.