Speaker 1:
Hi there. Do you have a child who takes special pride in kind of operating pretty well, getting their homework done, tidying up when they're supposed to, getting in the car in the morning on time, or a child who just takes it upon themself to kind of parent their siblings or other children that are younger than them, or maybe a little less competent in the executive functioning department? If so, you're gonna enjoy today's episode. You're gonna hear me working with a parent who has five children, two of whom have a little more ability, natural talent in the executive functioning department, and three siblings who aren't so skilled there, who seem to find themselves often on their receiving end of unwanted advice from their brothers or sisters who have it a little more together in that area. So it's a great conversation with a woman we're calling Marie, and you're gonna hear it in just a minute.

Speaker 1:
First, I wanted to introduce myself to those of you who don't know. You've arrived at the Parenting Without Power Struggles Podcast. I'm Susan Stiffelman, your host and the family therapist and the author of Parenting Without Power Struggles and Parenting With Presence. And I'm really glad that you're here. If you wanna find out more about my work, please visit susanstiffelman.com. You'll see lots of resources there for you, free and low cost, including an upcoming class with Dr. Gabor Mate, a workshop that will take place next week on January 17th with the replay available for people who can't attend live or just wanna watch it over and over again. It's gonna be a terrific deep dive into all things related to attachment, healthy development, mental health of our children and teens. And there's at least 35 other masterclasses that you can check out and take advantage of there.

Speaker 1:
As well as this, this podcast which has all kinds of interesting and helpful and valuable practical conversations with some of the great minds in the field of parenting and, you know, personal development, including Maggie Dent, Byron Katie, Janet Lansbury, Tina Bryson, Dan Siegel, Mona Delahooke, so many wonderful people who I admire and respect. So I hope you explore everything available to you both at susanstiffelman.com and here on this podcast. As I said in today's episode, you're gonna hear me working with a parent who volunteered for a short coaching session to get some help around this issue of her kids, two of them taking it upon themself to give direction or advice to their siblings. And it isn't always going over very well. Have a listen and we'll come back for the wrap up.

Hi Marie, so glad that you're joining me.

Speaker 2:
I'm really looking forward to this.

Speaker 1:
And I just asked you if you were familiar with my work at all, and you are, you said a little bit, right?

Speaker 2:
Yeah, I've taken a number of your prerecorded classes where the kind of compilations, where you put together a number of experts on a particular topic. Okay. And tried to watch as much of those as I could and soak them in so many greens of wisdom.

Speaker 1:
Oh, good. Well, it's fun to actually meet in person. We don't get that chance very often.

Speaker 2:
It's fun for me too.

Speaker 1:
So you have a large family and we talked a little bit beforehand, but basically I'm just jumping in here to offer you some coaching so that other people listening can kind of get a feel for not just the concepts that I talk about and teach, but the application. Because again, it's one thing to kind of intellectually know something, it's altogether something else to kind of have the language to be able to say the things you wanna say to be the captain of the ship in that moment. So give us a little overview of your situation and then let's jump in with your question.

Speaker 2:
Sure. I've got five children and they are close in age. They range from six to 12, and two of my children are neurotypical. The other three have some version of ADHD, high functioning spectrum. We're not really quite sure about our youngest. She might just be a ball of energy. But my two high functioning or my two neurotypical kids are, their executive functioning works well. And so we hear from both of them variations of that's why you should or that's why you shouldn't. And some finishing sentences might be, that's why you should get up the first time Mom wakes us up, or that's why you should get in the car right away, or that's why I always leave five extra minutes. And that's why I lay my clothes out at night,.

Speaker 2:
And they're wonderful. And those are qualities that we want our kids to have. But it feels a little soul crushing for the kid who is in the crux of that moment, who is not prepared, who's now facing some sort of rush crisis and is having someone else let them know that exactly why this is now happening.

Speaker 2:
So Susan, what I'm really looking for is like a catchphrase, something that I can, like a mantra that I can memorize and say again and again to redirect the conversation and to kind of put us all on an even playing field. Nice. Things I kind of go to after the moment are taking I'll call them the offenders aside to say everyone's brains are wired differently. You know, these things are strengths of yours, this is so easy for you. But for, you know, this other sibling that's hard for them, but look at the gifts that they have. This other thing is really amazing, your brother with the math. It's crazy. So I just need to redirect the conversation.

Speaker 1:
Okay. I love it. I just, I'm, I'm smiling ear to ear when I listen to the, the little parent. You know, we ha we see this a lot with kids who have younger siblings or especially younger, significantly younger, where they mother or father or parent, their younger sibling, regardless of whose on the spectrum or a DHD, it's just a way for an older child, or in your case, just a, a kid who functions more easily in the realm of planning and executive function to sort of feel powerful, to feel Mm-Hmm. Smart. So I'm always looking Marie at the underlying need that's being met. And in this case, is it a need for the child to not have the chaos of the morning going south the way it does when that kid doesn't lay out their clothes the night before or get, or is late getting in the car? Are they feeling personally impacted or do they feel like a little bit more special and powerful? Do they get something from you or do they imagine they're gonna get some kind of praise or admiration or appreciation from you? If you were to pick one of the two kids who do this and think to think sort of get inside their head or their skin and think, well what is the payoff here? What would it be?

Speaker 2:
I think it would be that power that I liked when you said the little parent. Yeah. They're feeling like they have kind of moved over from the kid position to the parent position. Like, well, I'm closer to the adult 'cause I know how these things work. Look at how well I am doing life here. Right, right. Particular instance. But I'll point out every time that I'm doing life well I don't know, I'd almost describe it as the, when I put you down, I feel bigger.

Speaker 1:
There's a beautiful saying. That's great. There's a great saying. Some people cut off the heads of others to appear taller. So so maybe the child who is both children it could apply to, but we're taking one at a time or this, you know, at least one of them. Maybe there's an insecurity that they walk around feeling or they feel a little lost in the shuffle. Or there's just so much going on with these other kids and their needs that this is a way for them to stand apart from the crowd. Do any of those resonate for you

Speaker 2:
To think more about insecurity lost in the shuffle? Doesn't resonate. Okay. for one, I think my oldest is 12 and we're entering the pre-teen years. And I just, so I think that trying to be that adult to say, yeah, I am bigger now. I'm in middle school. So that's very different from where you are in fourth grade.

Speaker 1:
Right, exactly. So we, we start by being curious just privately. We don't need to even explore this yet with our child. Right. Imagining the answer to the question. And if you've taken my classes, it sounds like you have ta done some different programs with me that you may have heard me say this important question is, why does this behavior make sense? Mm-Hmm. So whatever the behavior is, imagine that it makes perfect sense in some way that we haven't yet discovered. And, and so maybe it is a fe a way of feeling bigger, older, stronger, more powerful. Certainly if you have a 12-year-old in middle school, I would wager that there are times when that 12-year-old doesn't feel strong and powerful and secure, you know? Mm-Hmm. if I went to middle school, I would probably have a hard time every day feeling strong and powerful and secure.

Speaker 1:
'Cause It's just a hot mess. It can be. And so what I might then do after sort of exploring this on your own and, and imagining a few possible motivations for their, your child doing it, because it sounds like after the fact you are having a discussion with them. Only thing I would say, and you signed up to do this, so I get to mm-Hmm. you know, share openly and honestly is that like many parents, when you approach a child with left brain information, data, logical explanations and with the hope that it will penetrate or really make a difference before you've met them in the emotional place, in the right brain, in the feelings, in the perhaps unnamed and even unnamable forces at play for that drive behavior, until we've sort of joined them in the emotional place, the explanations like, you know, you're really good at this, it comes easily to you.

Speaker 1:
Your brother, however isn't so strong in that area, but look at him with math. Or he is amazing with animals. So that's fine to do as a step two. And in my work, mm-Hmm. I call it act two. And first we do act one. Just like if you went to a play, you wanna see the first act before you move on to the second. So some of the language I might, I might take each child and I would do this one-on-one by the way, not on mass. I would take your two kids who have easier or better functioning, executive functioning aside one at a time and say, you know, I've noticed that sometimes when your siblings, your brother, your sister are really struggling in the morning to figure out what to wear or they're running late it looks like a part of you.

Speaker 1:
And we talk a lot about parts in my membership. A part of you is maybe feeling a little like, I'd like things to settle down or <laugh> maybe a little annoyed. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> or maybe I wish things mom didn't have to like rush around the way she does. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and you're fishing for anything that they would nod their head or say yes to. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So that, that phrase for you would, I wonder if I get the feeling that, and then if, and so here's where we're setting up the conversation. I haven't given you your your catchphrase yet, but Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, we're trying to create an openness so that your child can co-create that phrase with you. I would rather they're a part of this process because they recognize that something isn't really working all that well than that. You from the top down being that captain say, look, every time they do it you say, Hey, blah, da da da da.

Speaker 1:
Mm-Hmm. Thinking it will stop the behavior. I'd rather us get to the root, which is always what I'm about. So I don't think there's a quick fix or a phrase or a bandaid. That's why I don't usually offer scripts. But I do think having a conversation, and we can play it out for a minute. Sure. Sweetheart, I noticed that this morning you were reminding your brother that if he laid his clothes out, this, you know, ahead of time, the way you do that kind of crazy kind of chaotic, chaotic stuff might, might not be happening so much. Did, did you did, were you hoping that it might help things along in the morning if you reminded him how you lay your clothes out?

Speaker 2:
Yes. That child would say yes.

Speaker 1:
Okay.

Speaker 2:
That is what he is hoping will happen.

Speaker 1:
So you're hoping that if you remind your brother to do what you do, he might go, that's such a great idea. I think I'll start doing that.

Speaker 2:
Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.

Speaker 1:
Has that ever worked before? Darling boy? So again, we, and

Speaker 2:
Then he would say, no

Speaker 1:
And so this is, look at you're laughing, I'm laughing. And this is where we lighten the vibe. We we're like, we're not coming in with this heaviness. It's like, oh gosh, if only, if only, yeah, reminding your brother to do what you do would work. Oh my gosh. Life would be quieter at our house in the morning, wouldn't it? Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 1:
We're on the same team. We're creating a feeling of, of connection and Mm-Hmm. and a mutual understanding and kind of commiserating together. I wonder how it is for you when you see your brother kind of running through the house, you know, screaming that he can't find any pants he wants to wear. How is that for you sweetie?

Speaker 2:
Yeah. And he would say it's frustrating because he's ready to go.

Speaker 1:
You're all ready and there's your brother slowing everybody down.

Speaker 2:
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. Well, thank you. You're so wise to kind of pin pinpoint what, what's underneath your effort to give him good advice. It's always really kind of cool when we can go, okay, what I what's behind this? And from what you're saying, it can be frustrating.

Speaker 2:
Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 1:
So I wonder if you would like maybe together you and I could kind of come up with a reminder for when that, okay. When you're feeling all kind of stirred up and frustrated, like, oh my gosh, every day we go through this. Because let me give you a few choices, hun. If I were to say to you, Hey buddy, don't give your brother advice he hasn't asked for, would that be useful to you? 12-Year-Old?

Speaker 2:
Mm-Hmm. maybe no, no.

Speaker 2:
No, no. We like code words in our house.

Speaker 1:
You like code words, so like

Speaker 2:
Code words, like an inside joke. Like I'll say something like banana.

Speaker 1:
Right? So what could we create you and I that would be our secret code for calming down or reassuring that part of you that's so frustrated by all the noise and all the chaos. 'cause That part gets to, you know, be frustrated. It's understandable. Could we have a code word or phrase so that when I notice that you're about to do it or that you're doing it, you're giving your brother, you know, Hey, if you would only get in the car earlier, we wouldn't be so crazy late. What do you think a fun code code word would be that would remind you that I understand you're frustrated. I understand and I'm with you hun. I'm with you. That it would be kind of amazing to have a peaceful, quiet, flowing into the car dressed in bed. That would just be this amazing. And, and there we are. We're not having it. What's our code word gonna be? Where we kind of look at each other and we wink and we go, we're not having that kind of morning, that flowy, flowy. Morning are we?

Speaker 2:
Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 1:
What do you think?

Speaker 2:
Well, I love that because it's now we're collaborating.

Speaker 1:
Yeah.

Speaker 2:
And now we're connecting. And there's buy-in from both and I have captained the ship to get us to the good place. And we have a way forward. So,

Speaker 1:
And, and look, we're just taking a few minutes to have a, a dialogue that deserves much more time. I just want people to get a taste of a different way of looking at some of these situations. And I'm not saying from this point forward your 12-year-old or your other child won't be giving advice to their sibling. 'cause I don't think that this is, you know, solves the problem. Sure. Completely. But, but I wanted to get you thinking about it a little bit differently so that rather than what you asked for was, is there a phrase I can use? I don't think there's any phrase that you can use that will be guaranteed to get you the result you want. Where that more neuro, more neurotypically developing child or the child with better executive function just restrains themselves from giving helpful hints.

Speaker 2:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 1:
To their siblings. I do think that the, the, the progress will happen when you acknowledge it and discuss it away from the incident itself and say, you know, I wonder what it's like for your brother and you could even do kind of empty chair or switch roles and have this child who's kind of got himself altogether play the part of the less organized child. And you play the part of this sort of parental sibling saying, you really should have laid your clothes out before. And then you let your, you know, the kid acting this roleplaying this with you kind of have an experience viscerally of what it's like. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> to be judged or scolded by their sibling. This is a lot of directions we can go in here, but they all are, if they're delivered with this love and this desire for you to stay connected as you so beautifully pointed out, they can move, move you even closer.

Speaker 2:
This is really great.

Speaker 1:
Any final thoughts or questions?

Speaker 2:
No, I can't wait for school to end so I can have some like sidebars over here.

Speaker 1:
Oh, good. Well, let me know. Will you please just try a couple of these ideas? Thank you. I hope you enjoyed that. Wasn't it fun to hear this mom? And she's so tuned into her kids and has so much compassion for an understanding of each child and their gifts and their unique qualities. I love that kind of atmosphere that it feels she's created for her family. If you have a question or a situation you'd like some advice on or you'd like some support or coaching around, of course you're welcome to join My Parenting Without Power Struggles membership. I meet twice a month with parents. But you're welcome to submit your situation to us at podcast@susanstifelman.com and we'll have a look and maybe you can join me for another short session here. Meanwhile, do visit the website susanstiffelman.com. Again, we've got this incredible class coming up with Dr. Gabor Mate, author of The Myth of Normal, co-author of Hold Onto Your Kids with Dr. Gordon Neufeld and many other important works and lots of other deep dive classes on all kinds of topics, as well as a free newsletter and just lots of encouragement support for those of you wanting to raise your kids with kindness, compassion, connection, and all those good things. So that's it for today. I hope I've given you some things to think about as you approach your own children in whatever circumstance that version of you is being called forth, the version that maybe you're not so familiar with from your own experience growing up, but that you're trying to grow and develop as you become more present, more aware and work through some of the little stumbling blocks and the big, big stumbling blocks that often appear in our parenting path. It's all an opportunity, as I see it, for us to grow and learn and become closer to our children in the process. So remember, no matter how busy life gets, look for those moments of sweetness and joy. Stay well, take care and I'll see you next time.