Speaker 1:
If you have a youngster who has a strong will and who's clear about what they don't want to experience or eat or do, you'll enjoy today's episode. First, let me introduce myself and welcome you. I'm Susan Stiffelman. I'm a marriage and family therapist, a former teacher and the author of couple of books, Parenting Without Power Struggles and Parenting With Presence. And I work with parents around the world offering support and guidance based on my 40 plus years doing this work all over the world and with many, many parents in our online communities. So I'm glad you're here. If you wanna learn more about my work, please visit susanstiffelman.com. There's so many wonderful deep dive masterclasses, as well as lots of free resources, a newsletter with great inspiration and tips, and a membership where I get together twice a month with parents just offering support and coaching.

Speaker 1:
Today's guest, like the parent I'll be working with, is a member of that community. We also have a Co-Parenting with a Narcissist community that I facilitate with Wendy Behary parents who have that kind of need, who are struggling with that kind of situation. And there's the podcast, look around. There's so many wonderful episodes here on every topic under the sun. So lots of help and encouragement and support and inspiration for you at susanstiffelman.com. And here on this podcast, in this episode, you're gonna hear me coaching a parent who wisely has cultivated in her daughter a clarity around saying what she is and is comfortable with around her body, that that sense of autonomy and being able to use her voice to advocate for herself. And there are times when as a parent, we may have to find a way to get our kid to take medicine or to do put on a jacket or to not swim in 40 degree water. So you'll hear us talking about how to approach a daughter to maintain that sense of connection and respect, while not advocating our role as a responsible parent. Have a listen and then I'll come back for the wrap up. Hey, Kelsey, so happy that you're here with me.

Speaker 2:
I am always so happy to see you and learn from all your wisdom

Speaker 1:
In global terms. Can you kind of lay out the scenario that you wanted us to talk about today?

Speaker 2:
Yes. So I have a seven and 9-year-old and they're both girls and they both are very, you know, assertive and able to express themselves, which is something that I've, you know, really worked with them on and hoped for them. And sometimes navigating that when we have some required things we need to do around their health becomes a little bit of a conflict for me internally. And then how to position that because I really wanna encourage their body autonomy and, and empowerment if I know that they know how to make good choices for themselves. And we're really big on intuitive eating in our home. And yet we had a few health things at the end of last year and one of both of them were dealing with some foot injuries. And so we were supposed to be doing PT and wearing a brace and not running, you know, things like that. And I was wondering how you would manage a scenario like that where there are these, there's direct medical advice being given by a doctor and they're having a difficult time and turn, like really taking that in and putting it into practice. Because overall I think they are having a hard time with seeing the long-term benefits when right now it feels so good to play and right now it doesn't hurt in this moment and they can't see it causing inflammation or how it's not giving them the rest, you know, long-term.

Speaker 1:
Wow, that's such a great kind of scenario and an unusual, a little bit unusual. I should tell people that you've been in our membership, our monthly parenting without power struggles membership for years. Right? So I remember when your, your children were so young, and so hearing that they're seven and nine confuses me a lot. I

Speaker 2:
Know they've, they've grown so much and all of your advice has been a, an integral part of us Aw. And maintaining such deep connection.

Speaker 1:
That's wonderful to hear. So, but this is a situation, you know, and I love that kind of the problem is a result of you doing a great job at empowering your girls to have a voice. Right? Right.

Speaker 2:
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
You only have a problem because they're not subservient or scared of you <laugh>. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
Yeah. They, they're like, it's my body, it's my choice, <laugh>, you know,

Speaker 1:
My God. So awesome. So well done you for kind of in kind of cultivating that so firmly in, in both of your children, especially girls I should say. But it, you know, whatever gender, we want our kids to know that it is their body and they have a right to talk about what they want or don't want. And we have a responsibility as parents to be up in that helicopter and see the long-term implications of choices that they may be making today. So a child who says, listen, it's my body. My body is telling me to eat a gallon of ice cream. Who are you to tell me I can't do that? Or it's my body and I want to go swimming in that 40 degree water. And who are you to tell me I shouldn't be able to do that? Or I don't wanna go to sleep, I'm not tired. Who are you to tell me? So? Right,

Speaker 2:
Right. Exactly. That's why I figure it's, it's a universal thing in the sense that everyone's sick, kid's gonna get sick at some point and not wanna take the medicine or not wanna go to sleep or, yeah,

Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah. So as you well know, 'cause we've, you know, we've done so much coaching over the years and you've heard me coach so many parents, I'm sure a lot of this has already kind of settled into your brain, but for the benefit of those who might be less familiar with my approach, the first step would be not to come at our kids with information that they aren't yet open or receptive to hearing, but rather to come alongside them. And I'm guessing you've done that already, but that would look like sweetheart, it's time to, and maybe you can give me a particular, like a, you know, what is one thing that they are resisting?

Speaker 2:
So my oldest, the biggest thing is she really hates taking vitamins or supplements. Any, any, I mean, you know, it wasn't even a prescribed medication, but any of these things that the doctor said, turmeric or what, you know, would be really helpful. And then when she, she actually got sick in the same season of also having her injury. So then she was supposed to be taking some medicine for that. And she just, she says, well, I don't like it. I don't like the taste. Why would I eat some each, you know, basically you taught me to take care of my body and listen to my body. And my body's saying I don't like that <laugh>,

Speaker 1:
So let's role play it. Okay. I think we'll have fun doing that. So sweetheart, here's your medicine. The doctor said this is gonna really kind of help speed along your recovery and also make sure you're not gonna get worse. Here you go.

Speaker 2:
In the hardest of times when she's really not in self, she would say something like like, no, I'm, I'm never gonna take that ever. Ever. Oh,

Speaker 1:
So you were hoping. So we give her in fantasy land what she wants in the real world. So sweetheart, you were hoping that the medicine was kind of optional.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, it's my choice,

Speaker 1:
Right? Oh, can you say more about that, sweetheart? When I say sweetheart, you all, that means I'm talking to the child in the role play, not to Kelsey. I'm not being overly familiar with it. So sweetheart, can you say more about that when you say it's your choice?

Speaker 2:
Well, you taught me that I'm supposed to be able to decide what foods I like to eat and what Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> I wanna do, it's my body and, and I don't like that. So there's no way I'm gonna keep that.

Speaker 1:
Got it. So I'm gonna pause the role play for a second. A couple things I wanna flag here. The first is you notice that she's asserting I'm never gonna do it, I'm not gonna do it. And I'm not gonna touch that with a 10 foot pole. It's tenting. It's like she's dangling this challenge in front of me and I'm not even going there. Because that is a no-win situation to argue Yes you are. No I'm not. You can't, maybe I'm not going there. I'm sticking with letting her see me genuinely be curious and interested and respectful of what's going on inside of her. Yeah. So, so let me see if I have this right sweetheart. You feel that as it's your body and as I've taught you that you have a right to decide what you do and don't take into your body and that you really don't like this medicine or the taste of it and you're kind of asserting your feeling that you shouldn't be forced to have it. Is that right?

Speaker 2:
Yes.

Speaker 1:
Yeah. And again, I'm gonna pause. So how do you feel right now as my daughter

Speaker 2:
That well acknowledged? Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1:
Okay. And if you were my daughter and things had not gone this way, in other instances, would you be a little bit surprised that it's gone? Sure,

Speaker 2:
Sure. Yeah. If it's the first time that you've really tried to see my point of view.

Speaker 1:
Okay. So that, I wanna just underscore for everybody, that is one of the strongest ways we have to create connection, receptivity, and a sense of dependence. Like the proper hierarchy of parent-child relationship is when we come alongside our kids, we seek to understand and we don't do the predictable thing, which is try and force our will upon them. Right? So all of those things are leaving you as my child, maybe a little like, wow, this is different. And that's a good thing not to scare you by being unpredictable in scary ways, but just, oh, this is different. Mm-Hmm. And maybe you relax a little bit. So so as I understand it, you're saying, sweetheart, that you know it's your body and as I've taught you, you have a right to say. So let me tell you about a little predicament I have as your mama. Okay? Can I do that? Would that be all right?

Speaker 2:
Yes.

Speaker 1:
It's my job, thank goodness. 'cause I rolled the best dice in the world. I'm the luckiest mom to be your mom. And that means a lot of things. It means I keep you safe, I keep you warm, I make sure you have a, a safe place to go to sleep at night, a cozy bed, a good school. All of those things are my responsibility. Thankfully, as your mom, you understand that, right?

Speaker 2:
Yes.

Speaker 1:
And I want you to imagine that you were babysitting for your little cousin Tommy. And Tommy was two years old and you, it was your job. Maybe you were with, you know, your auntie, but you were the one overseeing Tommy's care while your auntie did some work and Tommy really wanted to run and play in the street. What would you say?

Speaker 2:
I have to stop you. I'd have to grab him and keep him from Yeah. From getting hurt.

Speaker 1:
And what if little Tommy saw a bottle of vinegar and really wanted to drink it? He just thought, this is gonna be so funny. Would you let him?

Speaker 2:
Oh, I'd warn him. It would taste terrible. Wouldn't

Speaker 1:
Let Yeah, I know you wouldn't let him have it. So do you see when we are responsible for another person as the bigger person, as the person who knows a bit more about things like that might happen, not just in the moment, but that might happen later. It's kind of a tough job, isn't it? It would, you might not like saying, Tommy, you can't play in the street and he might be so mad. It's my body. I get to put it where I want to. Yeah. Kind of a dilemma, isn't it hun? Yeah. So now let's play a game and I'm gonna be you and I'm gonna be kind of having this bronchitis and there's an antibiotic or whatever it is I need to take. And you be Kelsey, you be my mama, and you try and get me to take the medicine and see what it feels like to be the one who loves me as your baby so much and wants me to get better and see what that's like. Hi mommy.

Speaker 2:
That's a cute idea. It's, it's time for you to take your medicine.

Speaker 1:
Oh, no, no, no, no. Not not gonna do that. It's my body. You can't make me. I don't like it.

Speaker 2:
Hmm. What can we do? How can we get you to take this medicine? It's my job.

Speaker 1:
No, mommy, you've told me it's my body. So I'll stop here 'cause this could go on for a while. Yeah,

Speaker 2:
That's a great

Speaker 1:
Idea. I'm giving you a couple of ideas. So the first is to kind of really acknowledge, you know, that you've heard her and validate. The second is to kind of paint a picture of the dilemma, not to make her responsible for your problem, which is how you get my daughter to take the medicine. But to kind of widen her perspective a little bit and help her understand that even though it's her body, you have certain responsibilities that have to take precedence at times the way they would, if she were watching her little cousin, she would have to deny him the chance to drink vinegar or run into the street. So we're, we're expanding her understanding or her even her empathy. And then we're doing the game and we don't have to do all these things, but the game, the role play can be a lighter way to sort of put her in the driver's seat and in the predicament that you're in. So I'm gonna be quiet now and, and just sort of gimme some feedback on how that lands, if any of those might be helpful.

Speaker 2:
Oh yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really, I think that's a fun way to engage her in it. 'cause She can relate, you know, she has two little cousins and so I could use that as an example of how, you know, if she saw them doing something dangerous, how she would help them. And,

Speaker 1:
And another thing you might wanna do is not do this at the moment when she's to take the medicine and it's maybe late afternoon and the day is sort of settling down. And you know what, honey, this morning when it was time to take that medicine, we really didn't do that well. And I was hoping that we could figure out a way together to make it happen more easily. 'cause I can't not do my job as your parent and follow the instructions of the nutritionist or the doctor, whatever. It, it would be bad for me. I couldn't kind of be comfortable for with myself if I didn't look after you as best I can and try and help you get well faster so you can enjoy the holidays, but you also have a right to say, this is how I'm feeling about it and I don't like that taste. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. So let's talk about what we could do differently that might make it work easier.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah. I think that I can say that that helped doing it at a different time in general because yeah, when their emotions aren't as, when she doesn't feel threatened, I am gonna force her in the moment. Like, we had a talk later in the bath when she was in the bathtub and then we were able to talk about it and she was just much more calm. So that wa that's a good idea just to wait for that instead of like the second that it does get kind of to wait for that until later.

Speaker 1:
That's great. That's great. And of course, in some things medical it helps to have the doctor sum it up instead of you or run interference. It might even help to get us to read the doctor's notes and say, here's what the doctor has advised, or here's what I've read online about boosting your immune system after this kind of virus. That these three vitamins or maybe you say the, there are these five supplements that I've read can really speed along your recovery. Which three do you in, you know, find the, the easiest to take? So she has a little bit of choice, but such a great scenario and I, I am, you know, both feeling empathy for you and sort of a little sorry that you have to go through it, but also you've created a good problem <laugh> in a way. <Laugh>.

Speaker 2:
That's what I hope. Yeah. But because this is a, this is a tension that they'll have to hold forever. It's something that we still hold as adults of figuring out how much do I wanna prioritize my self-care and how much do I wanna prioritize the pleasure of not having to do that thing that we don't wanna do. So yeah, the easy way out

Speaker 1:
And, and, and to be honest about it, and maybe you could even at a different time so you're not bombarding or say, you know what, I don't know if I ever told you the story about when I was a little bit older than you or a little bit younger than you, or in my twenties and I got this dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, and I had to wear this brace and oh my gosh, I hated it so much and it was so heavy and so clumsy and it made my foot itch. Or you could just tell her a story. There's likely, you know, something that you could share with her that kind of just helps her un know that you understand the, the discomfort or, or legitimizes your aversion her aversion to something because you've lived it yourself. And maybe you even say, and the only way I got through it was, and then you could fill in the blank.

Speaker 1:
What, what was it like? I could say for me personally as Susan, I had to wear a heavy, heavy boot or a hairline fracture on my foot. Oh my gosh. It was so uncomfortable. And I could tell that story and I could tell the story of kind of reminding myself pretty frequently of the pain I had been in and not wanting to repeat that. And maybe with your daughter, do you remember how horrible you felt when you were had that high fever or when you were throwing up and this, you know, my job is to try and help you not have those experiences as as much as I can. And, and so whatever it is that kind of helps her kind of get out of the presence, as weird as that sounds for someone who loves talking about living in the moment, but to, to mature means that we can think ahead.

Speaker 1:
You know, what would the, like I sometimes do this, what would, when I go for exercise, for instance, I'll say, I don't really wanna go. And you could tell her a story like this, I don't really wanna exercise. It's so cold. Or I'm so cozy and comfy. And then I, I say, well, what would my 80-year-old self say to me? My 80-year-old self would say, thank you so much Susie for taking those walks. And you could say, you know, what do you think that your, you know, three week later self would say, if you're completely better and you feel great again, would it thank you for taking this icky medicine? Or would it wish you hadn't?

Speaker 2:
Yes, yes. We did talk when she was in the bath, we did talk about her, like her 80-year-old self thinking way out. And then I thought, well, maybe that's too far out in the future where it's hard <laugh>. But I talked about her granny and I was like, you see how she's still popping around, you know, able to be so active And that's not, that's not always the case. Oh, then you'd see your other family member and they're, you know, you know, in a lot more pain and it's more of a, some of these things you're doing are gonna help you in the long run. It's not just now. And we kind of talked about that same as your teeth, you know, these are the same teeth you're gonna have forever. But I like your idea too about even saying like, your three weeks from now self, if you start feeling better, because I wonder if that was like so far away for her that it felt like too distant.

Speaker 1:
Nice. Awesome.

Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's, that's really helpful. Thank you. And I'm sure this, this is gonna keep coming up, you know, in a lot of other, in a lot of other ways. Great.

Speaker 1:
Well it is always a joy to see you and to have time with you and, you know, learn from what you're learning as a parent of now not so young children.

Speaker 2:
Yes, yes. They're always challenges and benefits of each stage. 'cause Yeah, they're they're so much more independent. It's incredible. And they have these whole other, you know, sets of questions and they're so curious. It's awesome. Oh

Speaker 1:
Yeah, what a great, great story. Thank you so much for joining me today and look forward to seeing you in our next call. Yeah, thank,

Speaker 2:
Thank you so much. Thanks

Speaker 1:
Everyone. So we were just chatting and you said something so sweet. Will you repeat it so that we can put it Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:
Oh, we, she, last night my oldest daughter just wrapped her arms around me and looked up and she says, mama, I just feel so connected to you and lit up. And it was just so special. And she, you know, we snuggled up before she went to bed and I was like, I'm so glad we're still here at nine. You know, I hope this, you know, she wants to, to be that excited about feeling close to us for as long as possible. <Laugh> <laugh>

Speaker 1:
And, you know, and all of that was informed by the way you, you've handled so many of these small little moments. So don't underestimate everyone how these little tiny, little seemingly insignificant interactions or struggles, how we handle them inform this overall sense of closeness and connection that our kids have. Thank you for sharing that, Kelsey.

Speaker 3:
Yes, of course. Thank you.

Speaker 1:
I hope you enjoyed that conversation and the various directions that we went in exploring options. And I tagged on that last little bit because after we finished the initial conversation, she shared that with me with so much warmth and enthusiasm and I wanted to include a little bit of a glimpse into that sweet side of parenting, even when things aren't always going quite so smoothly. So I encourage you to kind of reflect on what you heard and think about how you might apply some of those ideas of coming alongside, validating, role playing, helping a child speak or connect with the version of themself that might be three weeks older or down the road that might appreciate the difficult thing that they're having to do today. And of course, all in the context of respect and connection and creating that safety for the child to express whatever, or say whatever's on their mind without feeling shot down or ridiculed or punished or any of those things.

Speaker 1:
So it's not easy, we do have to be that captain of the ship. We do sometimes have to settle limit or at a guideline, but we can do it in a way that preserves the child's sense of dignity and their sense of autonomy and feeling respected and heard. So some things to practice in the coming weeks. And if you've enjoyed this episode and you're getting something out of this series, I would so appreciate it if you would leave a review or a rating or tell a friend or all of the above. And again, be sure to visit susanstiffelman.com if you could benefit from personal support and coaching. I make that available at a very affordable cost to people who join our Parenting Without Power Struggles membership. You can check it out at susanstiffelman.com. And now take a moment to acknowledge yourself for showing up for learning and growing.

Speaker 1:
It's so valuable what you're doing, expanding your horizons and your repertoire and your skills and your knowledge. This is how you get to offer your children something that perhaps you didn't experience growing up. Connection and clarity and decisiveness and limits delivered with compassion and all those good things that will really change the trajectory of your children's lives. One little event or interaction or parenting moment at a time. So as we wrap up, remember, no matter how busy life gets, look for those moments of sweetness and joy. Stay well, take care and I'll see you next time.