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Hi there and welcome to the Parenting Without Power Struggles podcast.  I'm Susan Stiffelman. I'm a family therapist, an educator, and the author of Parenting Without Power Struggles and Parenting with Presence. For over 40 years, I've helped thousands of families raise kids with more connection, confidence, and ease.

And in this podcast, I get to share some of that with you. We dive into real parenting struggles and practical solutions that are rooted in attachment theory. Neuroscience, mindfulness, internal family systems, and decades of clinical experience.  You'll hear conversations with experts like Dan Siegel, Janet Lansbury, Mona Delahooke, Tina Bryson, Ned Hallowell, so many wonderful people, plus Q& A episodes where I tackle your biggest parenting challenges.

If you want to go deeper, I hope you'll visit SusanStiffelman.com. You can explore my newsletter, masterclasses on everything from meltdowns and anxiety. to chores and sibling rivalry. Now, let's get started.

Susan Stiffelman: Hey everyone. Welcome. I am so glad to be joined today by Dr. Delaney Rustin. Hi Delaney.
Delaney Ruston: Hi.
Susan Stiffelman: Can I read your bio a little bit? Just a little?
Susan Stiffelman: Oh,
Delaney Ruston: absolutely. Thank you, Susan. So
Susan Stiffelman: Delaney is a physician, a filmmaker, and an internationally recognized advocate for healthy screen use in families, which is a topic very near and dear to my heart. Dr. Rustin is the creator of the acclaimed Screen Majors film series, which explores the intersection of adolescence mental health and technology.
Susan Stiffelman: Her work has sparked global conversations in schools and homes about how to parent in the digital age with both compassion and confidence. She is also the host of the Screen Majors podcast, where she shares practical insights for raising connected, resilient kids, and your newsletter too. It's screen majors.
Susan Stiffelman: Just remind me of the website. It's screen majors movie.com.
Delaney Ruston: Exactly. Yeah. And it's a tech talk Tuesday, but there it's the [00:01:00] blog and we're actually Susan in our 10th year of it.
Susan Stiffelman: So needed. You and I met some years ago when I did a screen summit and and instantly hit it off and it was just, but you're doing these very practical things.
Susan Stiffelman: In fact, before I met you, I was invited as a psychotherapist to be on a panel after the showing a screen leaders at a local high school or a high school in my area. So it was really a catalyst for some important conversations. Wow. We're still having, yeah. So this. Newsletter today was about this net Netflix series, adolescence.
Susan Stiffelman: And the real life issues that it's bringing up around boys and girls and shame online culture and these quiet crises that are happening behind closed doors. It's hit a nerve. Some people won't watch it. They're drawn to it and some people have watched it and it's just heartbreaking, but it's very real.
Susan Stiffelman: So from your perspective, what is the most important message that you hope families can take away from it?
Delaney Ruston: I think the most important message is that we're really in a bind. We really are as parents because we. Do not know what is happening online for many of our kids, and yet we wanna believe that it's all okay.
Delaney Ruston: Yeah, so that's first and foremost, that just a deep compassion for how hard this is. And that's why, gosh, it's been now 11 years working in this space with. The first teenagers movie. And so I'm always solution based like you are Susan. And so my, my, I'm excited to get to talk with you about solutions.
Delaney Ruston: The, this difficult situation that lots of I. Social conflicts and internalizing around all the media images. They're seeing short little videos to films and whatnot is impacting our kids. And we have such little insight as parents into what is happening in their online lives. And that was what the real main take home of this four part series is about.
Delaney Ruston: Now, of course there are the sub themes of big sub themes about how boys are being made to feel really inferior, insecure, how also girls similar situations, how the dynamics between them can blow up online and then. Horrific things. Very rare. Of course, that's why the movie is a movie based on fiction.
Delaney Ruston: But of course, tragedies do happen and this is ultimately a real tragedy. The blog that I wrote, the newsletter was, I. If you don't even wanna watch it or if you haven't, here are some big points. It's not that every parent has to watch it, and I stayed away from the whole topic of, is this good to watch with your kids or teens?
Delaney Ruston: That's very dependent on their age. Many of them will be watching it. But most importantly today I'd love to talk to you about some of the points in the series and solutions, and nobody has to watch the series if they don't want to. Yeah.
Susan Stiffelman: I'm really glad you said that because what I took from the newsletter today really was how focused you were on things you could do and.
Susan Stiffelman: This is up my tree because there's a lot of people in my field who theorize and they speculate and they use a lot of airspace to pontificate about things. But in the end, the parent's tell me what to do. I want to know the practical things. So let's talk about that. What can parents do or say to help in this?
Susan Stiffelman: We'll start with boys Feel safe. So we know that boys. This boy is characterized, as, falling into the shame. The body image struggles, these toxic versions of masculinity that he becomes exposed to. I haven't seen it. I've done my research around it. And from my vantage point, and I believe yours, the first and biggest thing we can do is say I am, make ourselves available for them to have these difficult conversations. They're difficult because we don't wanna be having them and hearing what they're exposed to and struggling with. But my God, 13, 14-year-old boys do not wanna come to their parents and say, I'm really struggling with my, the fact that I haven't had sex yet, or I'm scrawny and the girls are developing faster than I'm.
Susan Stiffelman: Let's get into the weeds a little bit about how parents still, yeah. Can make it possible and safe for their kids to come to us.
Delaney Ruston: And I would even start just for boys, girls, any gender. I'd say first message that is so important if a, any parent listening right now could go and do is to let their child know a safety first.
Delaney Ruston: To say to their kids safety first to say the kid might not even have a phone or whatnot, but they're on YouTube. They're seeing things, they're messaging over G Gmail, all sorts of ways over shared Google Docs. There's all sorts of stuff. So safety first is this idea that came to me because we have that when it comes to things like alcohol at a party and the kids are away, teenagers and we say safety first.
Delaney Ruston: Call me, I'll pick you up. It's not about giving, getting you in trouble, like it's just so risky to be in the car with anyone who is under the influence. So that same idea goes for. Letting our kids and teens know that most importantly, we know hard things are gonna happen, not if we know social dynamics feeling less than conflicts are happening online.
Delaney Ruston: Even group chats. So even when you're like, oh, they're not on social media. They are being social with each other, and the safety first is to say to our kids, you know what? Hard things are going to happen. I want you to know you can come to me and I'm not going to reflexively take away your screen time.
Delaney Ruston: Big.
Susan Stiffelman: That's big.
Delaney Ruston: Yeah. We know. Oh, so many teens I talked to in my clinic tell me that nope, would never tell their parents about what's going on because that fear is so great. And the, we don't wanna put a parent in the, in a bind that they maybe for safety wouldn't have to do something more extreme.
Delaney Ruston: And they might just say that briefly of course the key thing is safety here. I am much more interested in problem solving and working on situations that are really hard and having you lead, having us work together on how to solve this. Because, for example, should they talk to the school counselor?
Delaney Ruston: Should they call that kid's parent and really say if and when. You come to me in these situations, I'm gonna really wanna problem solve with you. You understand the situation, I wanna hear your insights. Now I have had scenarios where, for example the teen didn't want anything done and the parent eventually went to the school counselor, brought the teen down, who was about 14 to the school counselor at a scenario.
Delaney Ruston: 'cause she had been. A nude picture about her. It wasn't even her claimed to be her that a boy had done, and she was too scared of him finding out that she had gone to someone. But the parents knew something needed to be done, and they did do that, and ultimately it worked out. And so if this is messy.
Delaney Ruston: It. So it's not, you're not always gonna get the teen or the kid to say, yeah, sure, let's problem solve, but when done well and when the really hard situations might mean that we have to be more proactive than we are. And that's a key point. But if you, if an, the number one thing today is to have these safety first conversations.
Delaney Ruston: Yeah.
Susan Stiffelman: And the, and they're, and the more authentic we are. For instance I don't know, a parent of a teen alive who would not be in a position to say, I did not have to navigate this world when I was your age. And to be honest about it and say, look, I am. I am a, an explorer in this territory along with you.
Susan Stiffelman: I'm new to this landscape. I didn't live it. You are more of an expert. You're more familiar than I am, but I'm with you. Above all else, this thing of safety above all else, please, I will show you. By my actions, I will prove to you that if you come to me and you can test me with something small, I'm going to earn your trust so that you know that I'm your safe place.
Susan Stiffelman: And this is the thing, and in my work, as a lot of what I'm about is the parent working on themselves so that they can be that captain of the ship for their kids. So they can't, using internal family systems model, they can show up with that self. Energy, that they're not in their reactive place.
Susan Stiffelman: They're in a place of presence and calm and curiosity and connection and all those things that instill in the child a sense of ease and relaxation. Oh, because otherwise, who are they gonna turn to when the awful things are happening? Other 14 year olds like,
Delaney Ruston: yeah and let's talk about that because.
Delaney Ruston: Parents have such this belief, particularly the ones when I'm seeing 11 and 12-year-old teens in my clinic the parent will be with them and the parent says, oh, we're best friends. We can talk well together. And I will say in front of that parent and I should say, I should ask, I ask the teen, who else can you talk with?
Delaney Ruston: And I say that in a really kind way. I say, because it really is about having many people that we can go to all of us and that it doesn't take away from that many things. You will want to talk. It's often a mom in the room, but pretty often also a dad and I. That's another thing where parents are like maybe they have someone, and this is another real proactive thing.
Delaney Ruston: Who is that person does? Is there a teacher in the school? And to really have your kids say maybe this person. Okay, have you ever gone and told them anything that you push the boundary? And how did that go? To really see this as a skill and as a. Basically family efforts to make sure that they have someone to talk to, really identify it and.
Delaney Ruston: I think what's really key is that there's an assumption that, oh, that the, that aunt might tell the mom and you actually wanna say if there was something if it's not a dangerous situation, I want you to know that you can have the private conversations with other people. In fact, our life are about all sorts of conversations.
Delaney Ruston: Yeah. This is a really tricky one. Parenting in our society is very much seen as a silo and we. There's a discomfort about being really active and creating this bigger network for many people. Not all people get, don't get me wrong.
Susan Stiffelman: This idea too of I don't wanna air the dirty laundry, but this is how humans have always raised their children in a tribe, in a village.
Susan Stiffelman: We were never meant to be in a silo. There were supposed to be uncles and aunties and people in the hut next to you where you, especially as you moved into adolescence and you didn't wanna go tell, talk to your parents about things that were private to you. One thing that you can do if there is a favored aunt or uncle or neighbor.
Susan Stiffelman: Say to that neighbor in the presence of your youngster, if your youngster says, yeah, I feel pretty good around Uncle Bob. When Uncle Bob's around, say, uncle Bob, I want you to know that I've told Tommy that if there are things he doesn't feel comfortable talking with me about, and you're available, he can speak with you, and that I am now announcing that you do not need to.
Susan Stiffelman: In fact, unless Tommy wants you to tell me or it's super dangerous, or someone's life is threatened, you have my. Permission in front of Tommy to not tell me. So that's another layer of reassurance that you can give the child that you're serious, that you recognize how. Gosh, how I [00:13:00] think back on my adolescence and what it would've meant to me to feel that I could have somebody that I could speak honestly to, and often it will be a teacher, a favorite teacher.
Susan Stiffelman: But meanwhile if your child is, starts to, be brave and come to you, this is where you have to manage your own reactions and you really have to do your work. Because some of the things your kids may say to you violate the picture you had for how they would be. Living their 12th and 13th and 14th year of life.
Susan Stiffelman: Maybe you have this projection, this idea how cool it would be and maybe you have a child who's just miserable and they pulled away from their friends and they're locked up in their room and they start to leak out things about what's going on. And we're like, oh, honey, I'm sure they didn't mean that.
Susan Stiffelman: Why don't you try just texting them and saying you're sorry, or Why don't we plan a barbecue? It's oh gosh, now we've rushed in and proven I can't handle this thing you told me that's too uncomfortable.
Delaney Ruston: I agree completely. There is so much uncomfortable things happening online for young people that desire to be socially central is developmentally.
Delaney Ruston: Propelling them forward day by day. And of course some are retracting from that, but ultimately people want to be seen and included, and there are now exponential ways that they're not seen or included. I'll give an example. I was just doing a podcast at a middle school that had changed to be away for the day and prior to changing to be away for the day, the level of.
Delaney Ruston: Conflicts that were happening online was so intense. For example, kids don't want to do presentations because they can get videotaped and then that gets spread in a negative way. Or kids are a girl. There's a lot of these Instagram accounts that are.  Anonymous and it, there was one that was pretty hip you're like, everyone's going to it to see what's, who's being teased.
Delaney Ruston: And a girl was teased and so she then found a way to create a video to tease someone else and was felt relevant when she got put on when she was able to submit that video and have it put on this anonymous site. So how do we then help our kids, given what, whatever kind of ways that they're connecting with others and I think one.
Delaney Ruston: Way is you could ask to see their for you page if they are on social media, see what the algorithms are feeding them based on the things that they're interested in. And one of the big themes in adolescence is the young boy is feeling insecure about his sports, his body. And this is a huge issue.
Delaney Ruston: Jonathan Hyde mentions it in, screen ages the elementary school age edition about this rise in body dysmorphia for young boys. So if you were to ask them, don't, you don't wanna take the phone and just start scrolling, but ask them to see, also just gauge how this would be a good time to try safety first.
Delaney Ruston: And for us to get really calm before, we're gonna see a lot of things that are just gonna feel inappropriate against our values and see if there's a lot of stuff around body image and protein shakes and all of these things, and it's a good way to Then What do you do with that information? Sports can become incredibly a way of identity.
Delaney Ruston: And if you're getting concerned that this is the main way they're trying to get identity and putting all of their energy into that's a time to think, Hey, what other interests do you have that we can build these other things, for example, or if you're concerned, 'cause they're not, they're over obsessing about the way that they're eating or not.
Delaney Ruston: It's a good time to have evaluation with a counselor.
Susan Stiffelman: Yeah, that's good. So I always try and make these short. This one really deserves to be about an hour and a half. We're gonna, I'm gonna stick to the format in general, but I don't wanna stop if you have a few more minutes. I wanna just focus a bit on empowering our kids or helping them learn to think critically for themselves, because ultimately we can't follow them around everywhere.
Susan Stiffelman: And let's talk a little bit about how we can help them think critically. About what they're seeing and check in with themselves, even though it might fly in the face of getting approval, they might. Not want to admit that the thing they're seeing doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel right. It feels confusing, but it is a skill, right?
Delaney Ruston: Yeah. It is a skill and yet we're up against so much. So it, it absolutely behooves us to talk to them about how they're being manipulated, how these companies are making millions off of us posting all of these things and our attention for ads and our data, and yet. Because of developmentally where they're at and because the the entertainment is now beyond intriguing. The fact that it's these very short, incredibly engaging scrolling videos, it's really a lot to ask kids to have that insight, to be able to stop. And even college students that I know who have grown up with parents who have really helped them to see it, they're still going to it for.
Delaney Ruston: All sorts of reasons, and they're frustrated with themselves. But I just had a parent whose daughter's in college call me and saying her daughter's really struggling. Is there a support group or an accountability group for college age girl who wants to decrease and like pair with others to help with that goal?
Delaney Ruston: Because she feels so stuck, I hear this constantly. My kid, my daughter's in college, so I talk with a lot of college kids more than ever around all of this. And I think that. That's why a lot of the work that we're doing at screen ages is helping to decrease the load. And I'm not saying that it's not important to have them have critical views.
Delaney Ruston: A lot of the young people do have they understand that they're getting the they're getting things that have been filtered. They're getting the way that people do that. So you don't wanna over say that to girls and boys and whatnot. But I'm not. But I, a big proponent of having devices out of the bedroom, ideally day and night.
Delaney Ruston: I know Susan, you talk about this and then working. We have a big campaign since 2017, away for the day to get phones and smart watches out of schools that continues to grow. And there's a whole website for parents who wanna get motivated to change that in their school. So debulking. The time with all of this in these [00:20:00] is really important.
Delaney Ruston: And then the other thing I'd add to, yes, helping them to be critical thinkers. I think really adding the lens of when is technology being used for good? So raising our kids on a finding. I have a lot on my website. Five, 10 minute TED Talks that really inspire thinking about documentaries that have made a change.
Delaney Ruston: So really equally focusing on the way that we use technology for positive can be another. I. Another tilt to the lens.
Susan Stiffelman: Yeah, you're really great about that. I love your newsletters because you really encourage dialogue. The bottom line of all of this is connection. We know that when a kid feels close to us, safe with us, seen by us, appreciated by us, enjoyed by us.
Susan Stiffelman: There's a natural bias to be with us and be exposed and vulnerable with us. That connection is the, it's not always gonna work. There are kids who will push us away try as we might, asking them to teach you or show you a website where they've learned something or making it a challenge.
Susan Stiffelman: Every Friday everyone in the family has to come to the table with some cool tech thing they've discovered. Now you've given them a little bit of direction to look for something positive and intriguing. And maybe there's a lot of ways you can gamify some of it so that technology is not seen as the villain, but rather.
Susan Stiffelman: Something that we can use with discrimination or we can be used by, indiscriminately okay, Delaney, tell people please how they can stay in touch with your incredible work and and we'll wrap up.
Delaney Ruston: Oh, wonderful. Screen ages. movie.com has all everything, all the resources there.
Delaney Ruston: So loads of resources. I love the search bar because you can put in what age to get my kid a phone or not, or just pornography, like any topic. And you'll find the blog there. And the podcast episodes and how to bring one of the screen majors, movies to anyone's community. And we have a new subscription where there's now curriculums going into schools and all sorts of other things.
Delaney Ruston: That's really the place to find everything.
Susan Stiffelman: Okay. Thank you so much.
Delaney Ruston: Yes, it was my pleasure.
Susan Stiffelman: Everyone, I strongly encourage you to stay in touch with Delaney's work.
Susan Stiffelman: I hope you enjoyed that. Delaney has so much great information.
Susan Stiffelman: I've always found her to be a wealth of insight, not and in a fresh way, in a way that recognizes that technology is here to stay. We can embrace it, we can learn with our kids about how to use it for good. I got a lot from that conversation as I always do. If you're enjoying this series, I would love for you to leave a rating or a review.
Susan Stiffelman: You can always suggest a topic@susanfelman.com slash podcast. So there's a way to submit a question or just support@susanfelman.com. Remember, you can get my newsletter there and you can see all the upcoming classes and events that we have ways to support you. And now as we wrap up, I always like to say, no matter how busy life gets.
Susan Stiffelman: Look for those moments of sweetness and joy. Stay well, take care, and I'll see you next time.