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Hi there and welcome to the Parenting Without Power Struggles podcast.  I'm Susan Stiffelman. I'm a family therapist, an educator, and the author of Parenting Without Power Struggles and Parenting with Presence. For over 40 years, I've helped thousands of families raise kids with more connection, confidence, and ease.

And in this podcast, I get to share some of that with you. We dive into real parenting struggles and practical solutions that are rooted in attachment theory. Neuroscience, mindfulness, internal family systems, and decades of clinical experience.  You'll hear conversations with experts like Dan Siegel, Janet Lansbury, Mona Delahooke, Tina Bryson, Ned Hallowell, so many wonderful people, plus Q& A episodes where I tackle your biggest parenting challenges.

If you want to go deeper, I hope you'll visit SusanStiffelman.com. You can explore my newsletter, masterclasses on everything from meltdowns and anxiety. to chores and sibling rivalry. Now, let's get started.

Hey everyone, welcome, and Tammy, I'm so glad that you're here.

Thank you Susan, I am super excited to have this conversation with you.

We've had a couple conversations and they've been so fun, so this is I'm excited about this.

I'll read your bio real quickly, and then we'll jump right in. Tammy Sollenberger is a licensed clinical mental health counselor, a certified internal family systems therapist,  She discovered IFS in 2013 after training with Dr. Richard Schwartz and has since become a sought after speaker consultant and trainer in the IFS community. You've got a an amazing podcast, which is how I found you. So everybody, it's called One Insight.  And Tammy's also the author of The One Inside, 30 Days to Your Authentic Self, a guide to using IFS for personal growth.

She's also the mother of a 14 year old and her website is her name, TammySollenberger.com. Tammy. Good work you're doing in the world and helping translate these very beautiful ideas and principles into real life. So

yeah. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. And I think that's something that has been really important to me.

That's like these concepts, the IFS concepts and way of view, viewing the world and personality in some ways are really simple. Yet they're pretty complex. And so how do we. Make them so that the everyday person can just start using this language in their life, in their homes, in their families, with their kids.

So that's something that's been really important to me.

I've been a family therapist for  30 something years, a long time. And have pursued a lot of different trainings and a lot of different approaches to psychotherapy and personal growth.  And having landed on this in the fairly recent past.

It's really brought a lot of things together, and  I'm using it now personally. I just love this way of looking at ourselves that brings so much more gentleness and compassion  to our day to day experiences. And you and I are going to do a class, which I'm super excited for. And I mean it. Just.

To get to do a deep dive on parenting and the parts of us that show up as we parent is really going to be a game changer. So anyway, until then, we're going to talk today. Let's start with just a quick overview of IFS and what drew you to it and how in particular it influences your parenting.

Yeah I can just give a example from parenting.

So this is a true, this is true life. I like giving true life examples. It's important to me to be authentic. I saw the 14 year old son. He's my only child. I had a lot of, I'm just going to go in and jump in and say this. TMI had a lot of fertility issues. I didn't have him until I was 37.

I'm obsessed with, so basically I'm obsessed with him. I have parts that are like obsessed with him. So that's going to influence my parenting, right? Like that kind of before story is going to influence my parenting. And so I can be in a great mood, like la. This is me driving my car and I go pick him up from school.

And I'm, I feel good. Life is good. I feel pretty calm. And then, but he's just getting home from school. Plus he's 14 year old boy. And so he comes in and he's gets in the car and he's what are we having for dinner? And I want to hang out with this person and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's just he's in a part, right?

He's in a part that probably knowing him is a little bit anxious, a little bit has a hard time going from like friends to just being. Like school life to being in the car, like that's a, really tough transition. So he has these anxious parts and they come out as these sort of demanding wanting to know, and they feel to me like these aggressive parts, but it, to hit.

So I know that there are his anxious parts, though, what happens to me, though, like I self me adult Tammy knows that those are his anxious parts. And that's what he does. He comes at me question demand when he's anxious.  But what happens to me is I have a part.

That feels scared and threatened and feels like it's really small. It's like small and scared. So it's a part of me that feels small and scared. And then I have another part of me that's what, who are you talking to that way? You can't talk to me that way. Who, what, you're not the boss of me.

So I have these two different parts. And then I get a little frozen because I'm not sure how do I even, I can respond  to him out of one of these parts. So he's in, he's blended. with his anxious part. He is his anxious part. His anxious part walks and sits in my car. And then I have this moment of choice.

Do I want to respond in my scared little girl, which I can do. I can be like, okay, whatever you want, what do you want to have for dinner? I'll just do whatever you want. What do you want? What do you want? Love me. I can respond that way, which. I do sometimes. Or I can respond, I'm using my left hand and my right hand, and I can respond with my right hand being like, no, you are not going to talk to me that way, and I can't believe you talked to me that way, and ba da and you know what, we're going to have, beans and rice for dinner, or whatever in Brussels sprouts.

And I can respond in that way, like don't control me, don't tell me what to do. Or I, and I'm going to point to my heart, I can listen to these, both of these parts that are super triggered. My body's going to react. My nervous system is going to be like,  I can listen to both these parts and I can just take a moment and say, okay, I hear the one that feels small.

Like I hear you. I know that feels really scary to be talked to that way, to be yelled at. I know he's not yelling at me, but I have parts that like, if anyone raises their voice at me, I feel yelled at. So to be yelled at feels really scary to this younger part of me. And then I can turn towards this other part that's and you also respond in sort of anger because being yelled at is scary and you respond in anger and Nope, you're not going to control me.

I'm going to control you. So I get that. Like I get both of you parts, right? I can show you compassion. I can show you understanding. They both make sense to me, but let me be here. Let me. Answer him in a centered, calm, curious way. And then I can still can take a minute.  And say all of that kind of inside internally.

And then I can turn towards my kid and I can see him now that I'm in my adult self, I can see him as these anxious parts. I can say, oh, okay. You're anxious parts, buddy. Okay. And I can pick, tell me about your day, honey. What's, and I can respond and it's loving, like, how are you doing? Like how, yeah, we'll talk about what we're gonna have for dinner and can Weston come over and blah, blah, blah.

We'll talk about that, but let's just check in. Let's just check in and just tell me how you're doing. How was your day? And that shifts our entire evening.

You just jumped right into the real application, and we can go into the concepts in a minute, but I appreciate that you did that because a lot of us are full to overflowing with concepts.

Yeah. What does it

look like in that real moment? And in my work, those familiar with my approach to parenting and whatever you want to call it, my strategies, my conceptual framework, know that I talk about being the captain of the ship. What you're describing is you can be in the captain of the ship place, which is curious, calm,  connected able to show up with that kind of compassion.

As opposed to being merged with or blended with, which is a term IFS uses, blended with the part that is anxious or insecure or outraged, or that feels they have to justify and explain, which I call the lawyer, or that feels they have to overpower and control or bribe, which I call the dictator. Thank you because it, it brings to life, flushes out this idea of captain in terms of how it actually works.

So now let's back up and just very briefly, cause I know there's a lot of elements to IFS, broad strokes, sketching out some of the key ideas, would you?

Totally. So we have broad strokes. We have a parts of us. We're all born multiple. So I've been talking about the parts of me and multiplicity is a really I think understandable concept, right?

Part of me wants to eat all the brownies. Another part of me is nope, have kale for dinner, right? Brownies, kale, what should I do? And part of me wants this, a part of me don't want, wants that yeah, of course, like we have these different parts. And so IFS says that our personality is made up of protective parts.

Parts that are trying to protect, and we have two different types of protectors. We have these parts that are proactive. They go before us and make sure that we're never triggered, that nothing you know, bad happens to go before us. Those are our manager parts. And then we have parts that are reactive, that when we are triggered, when something does happen, when our core wounds get triggered, we have a firefighter comes in.

So those are two different types of. Protective parts. And if we have protective parts, then we also have a part that needs to be protected. So if you think of it as like an upside down triangle, we've got a manager on kind of the top left, a firefighter on the top, and at the bottom of that upside down triangle is what we call the exile.

And the exile is often these younger parts of us that hold a burden. And the burden is usually something like.  It's a core belief. I am unlovable. I'm unworthy. I am bad. I shouldn't exist. Something's wrong with me. Like these are our core wounds. And so what happens is if my core wound that my exile is carrying, that's, we call that a burden in IFS.

If my core wound, this is true, is I shouldn't exist. Then my protector parts work really hard to make sure I never feel that. So my manager part makes sure I do things to prove my existence. So I never feel I shouldn't exist. So I should be here because I wrote a book and I had a podcast and everybody loves me and I'm a really nice person and and I'm a nice girl and I'm a good girl and I never do anything wrong and I'm always nice and smiley and happy, right?

So this part makes sure that happens. Manager part protecting. So I never feel I shouldn't exist, but guess what? That, that is going to get triggered because first of all, our kids are some of the biggest dick calls tormentors, right? They're going to trigger these XL parts of us. Our partners and our kids are going to be the ones that trigger that, right?

So when he says, I don't want to hang out with you, mom, I want to hang out with my friends. It triggers my part that says I shouldn't even exist. I shouldn't even be here. So when that gets triggered, my firefighter comes in, I put my hand up to the sort of the right. Right top of that triangle, and that comes in and says, Okay we got to calm that fire down, like the feeling that exile has been triggered.

And so now we've got to calm that down. So my favorite firefighter behaviors are going to be, I'm going to eat all the cookies, I'm going to eat all the brownies, I'm going to shop on Poshmark, I'm going to sleep all the time, I'm going to maybe drink too much, all those sort of naughty, naughty things that we don't like to do, because it's like an it.

It's got to do anything to get that fire out, right? It's an emergency. Get the fire out. So that's how, that's what it is. We have the two protectors, two types of protectors.  And then the exile, and then I am here too. So I say that all the time. I am here too. So my authentic self, it's not just these parts of me, these parts I need to protect in this exile.

It's me. I'm here too. So I am that adult self, but not just the adult self, it's the essence, the spirit of me who is, has these characteristics, like we've talked about calm, compassionate, curious.  And so that's why we can check in and see. How much self energy am I feeling? And it's not all or nothing.

It's not all self or all parts. There can be a little bit of self energy, a little bit. I can be a little bit curious about why my son's acting that way, why he's being really mean to me. I could be a little bit curious about that. And that's all I really need to get my parts to step back. And so I can have connection with him, which is another C word.

And as another thing, when I have disconnection, that's another triggering word for me. Anyways, that's the system, protectors, exiles, and self.

Elegant  and so true. I encourage those of you who are interested, who are hearing this, that was a mouthful. And so go ahead and listen a couple more times or pick up Tammy's book or listen to her podcast.

There are a lot of ways of taking this. And I've probably read five or six books now, and I've done some trainings and I'm about to do another one. It's, but you've given a simple kind of almost diagram of the core elements. And I really trust people when they hear something that some part of them goes, what?

Huh? They perk up to follow that. That impulse or that urge or that wisdom in you that perhaps this is a very compassionate and gentle way to make sense of either your child's challenging behavior or your own. One of the things I see a lot in the work that I do is that parents are just immensely ashamed of a lot of their behavior.

They're so hard on themselves. They carry so much. guilt. But of course, then the firefighter you can't feel that we don't want you to feel bad about yourself because of that core wound. So let's make it about the other person or let's distract yourself. And these days just pick up your phone or switch on your TV and you're gone for hours until you fall asleep.

Numbing out. Yeah. Whereas there are these beautiful golden opportunities when we notice that we're a little uncomfortable, either with something that we did or something our child said just a little didn't land well. And maybe we start ruminating or obsessing about that thing. But that can be a signal that there's something, an opportunity here, and you talk about the trailheads, which we'll do in some depth in our class, but I just wanted to acknowledge that and maybe give you a minute to, to address that, what is it, what are the opportunities when we find ourselves really unsettled or triggered?

Yeah, I love that. So in IFS, we call that a trailhead. So when I'm triggered when I'm when I am in the car and he comes in and he says that I'm triggered. So I can either respond like I'm triggered. Oh my gosh, let's go to 711 and buy cookies because I'm triggered and I could respond that way because I'm triggered and we have a activation comes when we're just by being triggered.

That's something happens to that to us when we're triggered. Or we can think of the, this is a trailhead, this is a path that leads me down some self-exploration. Yeah. So when I'm triggered, I can say, okay, here's a learning opportunity for me. Here's a learning opportunity to turn inside, not to my son, first to me, first to turn inside of me and say, okay what's curiosity?

What's going on guys? What's happening, right? I can ask inside what's happening right now and I might be able to get it in the moment, right? I just feel I feel disconnected. I feel mad. Okay, so I'm just gonna notice a part and I'm gonna name it A part of me feels mad a part of me feels disconnected a part of me feels disappointed I wasn't having a dance party and I thought he'd get in the car and we'd have a dance party together Okay, so I can feel that disappointment.

This is not how I wanted our night to go. So I'm just going to start naming the feelings that I already have. Like I'm not, don't go looking for parts. What are you feeling right now? You're listening to this podcast. You're doing the dishes. You're in your car. What are you feeling right now?

And can we just begin to name those as parts? Those are parts of you. And so that's, I want you to learn it and do it as you go. Instead of I'm going to learn about IFS through reading a book or going to therapy. Those are good things, but as you go, can I just begin to name these parts of me, especially in parenting?

It's hard to do in the moment, but our kid is going to bring up our stuff. They're going to bring up our attachment stuff. They're going to bring up our stuff. It is an amazing opportunity to turn inside and say, okay, what's going on everybody.

I just  love this so much. I did a class.  A long time ago, something with Jon Kabat Zinn and I remember, I've always remembered this that he said living with your kids is like living with little Zen masters, there you are, like, you just could not ask for a greater opportunity  to have a mirror held up.

It's funny when you were just talking literally as you said the word, my son. My son texted and I thought they were off and just said sending love. And it was like, I love that, but it's still a process. We are a work in progress. And this work has been so helpful for me, even though he's an adult to start looking more.

More gently, but more honestly at some of the stuff that, has shown up over the years inside of me as I've raised him with the burdens that I brought, from my own childhood. Tammy this is meant to be a short podcast and I'm already aware. How are we going to do a 90 minute class?

That's not going to be enough time. Yeah. But we are going to in a month or so. So everybody make sure you're getting my newsletter so that you get the notification. My final question you answered, but I just want to Do it in a succinct way. If people are just intrigued, they don't want to do anything else, but just maybe apply something that you've said.

Can you underline one thing that they could do?

Definitely. I'm glad you asked this because I wanted to circle back to you have parts of you. So listeners, you have a part of you that tells you that you're a bad parent, right? We have all screwed up. I screwed up yesterday. Bye. I'm sure I screwed up today already, but I know that I screwed up yesterday.

And so can I start there? The part of me that says you're a bad parent, the part of you that feels guilty, the part of you that says you messed up. So let's start there and let's see if we, yourself, can be curious about the part of you that's telling you're bad. That's saying that you're bad. There's something wrong with you.

That's naming or listing all the things that you've done as a rotten parent. Can we just start there? Can we unblend, which means you and there's space between you and the part of you that you're a critic, right? You're a parenting critic. We all have them. I don't know how loud yours is. Yours might be really loud.

And so can we just imagine that there's space between you and this parenting critic? And can you get to know it a little bit? And then what happens is you have some curiosity towards it.  And we're not trying to say that it's wrong. We're not going to change its thoughts. We're not trying to change anything.

We're trying to take it to coffee. We're saying, Hey buddy, come to coffee with me and I want to get to know you. What are you trying to do for me? What's your positive intent? You keep telling me how much I suck. You keep reminding me of all my mistakes. And so let's go have a conversation about how you're trying to help me.

So that's where I would start. There's me. All right. We're going to take a part to coffee. What's the part that you hear all the time, right? What's one of your common parts that's always driving the bus. And in parenting, we all have something that tells us we suck.

And you may find that you're compensating for that by glorifying your every moment as a parent, for some people, it's I can't carry that.

I can't look at that. So I'll just make it all about my child's misbehavior or problematic behavior or his other parent or

the

school that he

goes to or. The blame, right? So we all have parts that blame blame. And if you tend to blame your kid, you blame other people too. So it's hard to look at that.

That's a hard mirror, but I'm saying, okay let's look at that part of you. The part of you that tends to blame other people. We all have that in some way yours might be really loud. And so can we look at that? We look at that with some curiosity.

And that's the beauty of this work. It has completely removed the judgment.

Yeah. It's always about, the protective parts always have a positive intention. They are always doing what they perceive as vital and important to keep you safe. And as we get sturdier in our self care, energy. We're able to observe that and engage with that and learn from that, because there's nobody that's going to let you know your blind spots and your flaws like your kids.

It's almost like it's an edict that they come into this world. I am now, one of my jobs here is to help my parent grow. And I'm going to do that by. Pointing out all the stuff they don't look at or they're unaware of or they refuse to admit and you know Some kids are relentless and some are passive.

But eventually if we say yes, I want to be healed Not just of the present day relationship, but all the stuff I brought in with me  What an amazing magical opportunity

Definitely. Yeah.

So please tell people how they can learn more about you. And then we'll, again, we're going to do a class. We have a, I believe it's May 1st.

So that's right. Yep. Check in with your, if you make sure that you sign up for the newsletter that I have on my website, you can  be notified in advance.

How do they?  So people can just find me. My website is Tammy Sullenberger. com and that has my book and my podcast and all the things. And then I have a upcoming consultation group.

That I'll be running soon with my friend Sue. And another friend named Sue. And yeah, just check out my website and you can find all the things there. Beautiful.

Thank you. It's I've been wanting to do this.  Take the IFS more fully to my community and now we get to do that.

So thanks everyone. Love

it. Thank you for having me.

Bye.  I hope you enjoyed that. There are so many ways that we can use IFS to shift back into being that calm, self led captain of the ship that I've talked about for so long. And perhaps this week you can just pause and notice your parts when you get triggered by your child instead of, just moving straight to anger or fear.

Get curious instead of judging so that you're approaching your child's behavior and your reactions more with curiosity than criticism because we understand that they're both driven by underlying needs and emotions and then just lead with that self.  Meaning that you're trying to respond from a calm, compassionate, connected place rather than those reactive parts to foster a more secure and loving, connected, supportive parent child relationship.

So much wonderful material here and so much to learn.  So please acknowledge yourself for being here and showing up and growing as a parent.  And remember, no matter how busy life gets, Look for those moments of sweetness and joy.  Stay well, take care,  and I'll see you next time.